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UK Special Representative for Iraq Returns from Baghdad UK Special Representative for Iraq, Sir Jeremy Greenstock, just came back from Baghdad where he spent a year as the senior British representative. He is a career diplomat, and before being in Iraq, he was the former British Ambassador to the United Nations. During his short visit in France, Sir Jeremy granted an exclusive interview to Christian Malar, Editor-in-Chief, France 3 TV Corporation. Paris, April 29, 2004. (Excerpt aired on Soir 3's Edition).
Christian Malar: Thank you for receiving us Sir Jeremy. My very first question deals with Iraq, a country that you just left a few days ago. The situation there is getting worse and worse. In such a chaotic context, do you think the transfer of sovereingnty to the Iraqis as it is announced for the end of June can still occur or is this what we do call in French "un vœu pieu " (a sort of whisful thinking) ?
Sir Jeremy Greenstock: I think we have to accept that there would be violence in Iraq for some time to come.. But most of the violent incidents are being perpetrated either by those left over by the Saddam regime - who are quite small in number - or foreign terrorists who are also quite small in number. And both those groups are resented and opposed by the majority of the Iraqi people. So increasingly, we need to "iraqiise" the security services and persuade Iraqis to oppose the presence of violence in their society. But these things take time and with modern terrorist methods, it's very difficult to stop everybody getting through. We have picked up a large number of people involved perpetrating these incidents, but I am afraid, there would be a continuous era of violence for a little time to come.
Christian Malar: Aren't you fearing on the ground an Alliance that never existed before between Sunnites and Shias against Coalition Forces ?
Sir Jeremy Greenstock: Not as such. It is not an alliance as it is organised, but there are apart from the two groups that I mentioned, there are quite a number of Iraqis who feel that in some point they must show their resistance to the occupation. And they join in an instant and they decide to go back to normal life. So, in that area, if there is growing frustration, more people will join the violence. But if they see that the economy is improving, jobs are coming and money is coming, they go back to normal life. But between the Sunnites and the Shias, there is some great conspiracy to join together in violence.
Christian Malar: How seriously do you consider the way the Shia cleric Muqtada Sadr is threatening the Coalition Forces when he says: "Don't touch to Kerbala, these holy Iraqi places, otherwise, it will be terrible for you" ?
Sir Jeremy Greenstock: Muqtada Sadr doesn't own Najaf or Karbala. He doesn't speak for the people of Najaf. He doesn't speak for the religious Shias Community. He has been asked by the senior sheiks - and he is not one of them - to come down and stop ruling the prospects for the wider Shias Community. But he is a local problem in Najaf. He had disobeyed the law himself. The authorities of Iraq must keep law and order. And Muqtada Sadr must be handled according to the law, but he is not, in my view, a wide spread problem within the Shias Community.
Christian Malar: French President Jaqcues Chirac declared this morning, let me quote him: "There won't be any reconstruction in Iraq unless a real transfer of sovereignty under the control of the United Nations is done". The fact that the U.S. intend to keep commanding military operations will lead to a problem with the Iraqis. Do you also share this view ?
Sir Jeremy Greenstock: No, I rather agree with the principles which the French President has announced on this. We do need to see a clear change on the 30th of June. And the Americans, I am sure, agree with that. But the real change is going to come with the elections at the end of the year or in the early 2005. That's when there will be a new National Assembly which really will start legislating for the sovereign Iraq. And allow us, please, those who are observing this process to move in stages will have difficult times with the occupation.
OK, let's not argue about the past. We want Iraqis to take over. It's the Iraqis - the Ayatollah Ali Sistani himself - who said: "Don't let non-selected Iraqis take over with any strength"! So we are moving in stages towards the elections and it would be good these elections should be held under a period of full Iraqi sovereignty. There will be a change in mid-year and I think the criteria which the President has laid on will be fulfilled.
Christian Malar: Sir Jeremy, you are certainly among the most qualified people to speak about Iraq, after your unique experience on the ground. Do you personnally fear today a first risk of partitioning there between the Kurds, the Shias and the Sunnites, ending by a Civil War ?
Sir Jeremy Greenstock: I have never felt that there was a risk of civil war because the Sunnites, Shias and Kurdish communities have never been opposed to each other on block. There have been different and serious incidents coming out of each community and clearly, there needs to be more work to bring the communities together in a unified Iraq but in the governing Council, I saw a remarkable unity around the table in taking the political process forward together and if that is an example of how different politicians from different communities can work together, I think that's a good one.
If there was no hard violence in Iraq, if we can deal with that problem, I have absolutely no doubt that Iraqis who want to work together on the political, economic and social spheres - and I didn't see the seeds of civil war. If it went bad, there would be local places going wrong and being violent, but there won't be a great outbreak of civil war. That's my prediction.
Christian Malar: Isn't utopic to believe we have a real chance to impose our own model of democracy, according to our values, to countries such as Iraq, like George W. Bush seems to want it ?
Sir Jeremy Greenstock: The British have too much experience in their history of working with other Nations to believe that the Iraqis can ever have a political structure that is not Iraqi and not regional in its nature, nor Islamic in its nature. They must recognise the value of the Kurds who are also Muslims - they are not Arabs - and I don't think in their make-up, but Iraq will be a true unit between Sunnites and Shias unless the Kurds are also involved. But the culture, traditions, history of Iraq, the national pride of Iraq will be expressed in their political structures. It may not be what we feel about a perfect democracy, but the United Kingdom took eight hundred years to get to this point, and France has taken more than two hundred years to get to this point. Let's give them a bit of time! Christian Malar: Thank you very much Sir Jeremy for granting us this interview. Sir Jeremy Greenstock: Thank you Christian.
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